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03 July 2007 @ 07:31 pm
giving away money  
i just came back from the us social forum. i have a lot of different thoughts about it, but one thing that happened was that at the 'building a queer left' event i met a trans person named tyrone. he and i had a very interesting conversation about work he has done focused on connecting with other people from class-privileged backgrounds and working with them to think about giving away money. we talked about how some of the work that goes on in that realm, while really awesome, feels somewhat unsatisfying because its so focused on trying to help people feel comfortable giving away any money at all that it doesn't ask the harder questions like, should people give away all their money if they have more than they need to live? Is it ethical to hoard any resources? also, we talked about how a lot of that work is focused on giving to foundations or is coordinated by foundations, and we both have a growing critique of philanthropy (see the book, _the revolution will not be funded_).

i talked with tyrone about an idea i've had for a while that i would like to create a little workshop that could be done very informally with people i know as a social gathering focused on helping people realize their role in the economy, the obstacles to many people in the US understanding themselves as "rich" even though they are, what it means to overcome apathy and guilt, why giving your time is important but giving away money is also an essential radical thing to do, etc. i'm mindful that not only do i know people who have big money like trust funds, but i also know people who make high salaries, and i know a shitload of people who are going to inherit some amount of money some day when their parents or grandparents die. i am especially mindful of that group, which is the largest i think, and how when their parents die they will be totally traumatized, of course, and it seems likely that that trauma will prevent them from forming a political understanding that about how inheritance is a cornerstone of capitalist oppression and keeping the money is not the right way to honor their parents' memories. of course, there is 0% chance that i'm going to inherit any money since my mom is dead and my dad lives off his girlfriend and was marginally housed before he found her, so i realize i might not be the best person to do this work. i have 'nothing to lose' in this analysis. i don't have to face the guilt or insecure feelings people with wealth or future inheritance face (i have different guilty/class shame/insecurity, don't worry) when these conversations come up. so i've thought about doing this type of workshop with a partner who does have family resources in order to create a space that is safer for people opening themselves up to this analysis. i've imagined creating an event that feels social and will draw people for that reason, but that includes this political education element and encourages people to face the feelings that come up when recognizing class privilege and to learn about what it means to begin to think through a redistributionist political practice before they inherit or get a mortgage or have a kid or other things that often lead to a conservativizing political practice.

today when i was driving to work, though, i further reconceptualized this. one of the presentations i saw at the forum was about the phillipines, and i was struck to my core by the poverty people are facing there, as in so many places. i am getting ready to apply for a set of academic jobs that would give me a big income leap if i get one, and i've been thinking a lot about something i wrote about years ago on makezine.org: how to figure out what is the amount we each need to live and each can give away, how to face feelings of fear and financial insecurity that cause people to hoard wealth in retirement accounts or buy real estate, etc. these topics are so taboo, and so difficult for very good reasons, and i really long for a meaningful group conversation about it. today i was thinking that it might be cool to start a network of people setting to work coming up with some key guidelines about how to think this through: how to measure your financial needs and obligations and how to assess your consumer practices and how to determine ways of keeping a redistributionist politic. i can imagine people contributing articles to a website about concerns they have with various consumer trends (like my concerns about cell phones and ipods and expensive, privatizing, plastic creating, ubiquitous new 'needs'), i can imagine people really discussing what a living wage is in various cities and what to give away, how to invest in a shared future of social justice rather than personal accounts aimed at making old age less vulnerable, how to assess ways of giving away money (as cash to homeless people, to organizations that are community controlled, to foundations, etc), how to think about family obligations, and how to deal with difficult feelings and experiences that result from breaking the rules of capitalism (and, possibly, your own family system) by getting real about and redistributing wealth. i feel like i can already see some of my friends getting more conservative, considering buying apartments, having their standards of living slowly or quickly get higher without acknowledging the value shifts and resource usage that represents. i see people using rhetorics of "self care" in ways that are more about consumerism and convenience than sustainable healthy living practices. i wonder if people would be able to be safer being critical about this if there was a group putting their heads together and offering the security of doing this work in numbers instead of as a lone person.

just to be clear, i am NOT talking about starting a non-profit. that is the last thing i want, to start a new need for resources. instead, i imagine a network, a place to think about shared values and standards of redistribution that acknowledges the obstacles people face when trying to think this through responsibly, and a place to feel supported by shared analysis and committment to economic justice. i also like imagining this thing that is like a budget worksheet. once, to manage my debt, i went to this non-profit that helps you budget your money and figure out what you can do to pay your debt and get by. the person went through my life with me on worksheets, figuring out what i spent and what i could cut out. it actually wasn't helpful at all in my case, but i can imagine us getting to the nitty gritty of talking about the fact that decisions to eat at home or out a certain number of times a month, or to buy electronic gadgets, or to take trips, are political decisions that impact our ability to redistribute our resources, and we could imagine non-judgmental ways to assess our own practices and think about how to aspire to meet our politics in new ways. do you think this would interest anyone, or am i just a deluded formerly poor person who thinks people will actually have politics that are more than lip service?

i also like imagining helping people who have not worked extensively in non-profits to think through where to give their money. i feel like a lot of smart, kind people have vague critical feelings about non-profits generally that keep them from giving to non-profits or make them want to give to big, established non-profits that they percieve to be fiscally responsible. i'd like to help people think about what good non-profit practice looks like, assessing things like community governance, pay equity, committment to leadership development, anti-racist organizational development, etc.
 
 
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Geeky Femme[info]cixous on July 4th, 2007 03:47 am (UTC)
dean,

i think about this stuff all the time and it always seems impossible to get people (including myself) to speak really honestly about their own money and wealth. i would love to participate in and work on something that brings up these issues in an open way through an anti-capitalist lens. my head is swimming.

erica
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 4th, 2007 03:53 am (UTC)
oh good
if you think of specific questions you'd bring to this that you'd like to think through with others, please write them here so we can be listing and thinking together.
one theme i feel is inherent in this is issues of control. control over money, meaning should people with extra money hold onto it and give it away a little at a time or all at once, should it be given with specific instructions or limitations on how it can be spent by an org or foundation or more generally.... also, i think control issues come up in the thorny area of dependency. if you have kids or parents or extended family who rely on you, and you decide to give away your money, you are also making decisions about their quality of life, although if you don't give it away that is an equally political decision. i think an underlying problem is that we all are afraid to acknowledge the control we do have and the control we don't have (we can't ever fully protect ourselves from potential disaster and one of the false promises of wealth is that it will heal insecurity of living, although of course it does soften many blows in life)... so much to think about.
Geeky Femme[info]cixous on July 4th, 2007 01:35 pm (UTC)
Re: oh good
One thing that kept going through my head when thinking about what you said about hoarding wealth was my parent's health. Just thinking about what would happen to them in this country if they weren't saving for retirement was heartbreaking. If the government is not going to take care of people and your children can't take care of you, who will? I save for retirement because there may not be any social security when I get older and I won't have any children to take care of me. I'm terrified of ever being unable to take care of myself. And being an Ashkenazi Jew, I just know there are a whole host of genetic diseases to look forward to when I get older and they are really scary. I don't know how else to deal with that without money. It's the only way I know.

I also think a lot about philanthropy, especially because I used to work at a foundation and I worked in fundraising. I have been trying to give money away more intentionally and regularly. I always give to smaller, grassroots organizations. And now I work somewhere where almost all the money we receive is restricted and working in accounting, I see how silly and unproductive that is. It really is all about control because it isn't helping as much as it could.

I often see people balk at high entrance fees to fundraising events and then buy lots of drinks inside. There is something really basic missing in people's education about giving money away - I guess because there is no education about giving money away, except for rich people. My parents had a lot of money to give away when I was growing up, but I never saw them doing it. But I have encountered some people who think a lot about giving because their parents do. They may not do it in a way I think is best, but at least they are thinking about it. So few people do.

I have more in my head, but I don't have much time to write now. I have the Revolution Will Not Be Funded on my table and I am going to read it as soon as I am done with class for the summer. I want to talk more.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 4th, 2007 07:16 pm (UTC)
Re: oh good
i think this question about retirement and old age is one we're going to need to do a lot of thinking about together, and part of the reason we need a big community of people thinking about this together because when we think about it just as individuals it is terrifying and becomes a really good reason to keep our money. i also think about my own old age, and who will take care of me, in addition to thinking about my dad. he didn't raise me and has 4 other kids he also neglected. right now he lives off this woman with money, but they aren't married and i always worry their relationship will break up and he'll rely on me for support. he is 74. none of his kids like him or feel obligated to care for him, but i don't know if i could bear to see him living in a shelter or something. when my mom died he was living at the YMCA, before he hooked up with the woman he lives off now. i feel in myself the "financial insecurity" fears that drive people to save/hoard money when i think about the fact that i might end up caring for him, and i don't think i could bear to live with him. i see that also when i think of my own old age, although it seems far off right now. at the same time, i see that for years the right wing has been trying to incite panic in americans about social security benefits disappearing to push for privatization of those benefits and stock market investment of those funds. i continually see that fear of scarcity used to manipulate people into conservative decisions. i don't want to participate in that. i wonder if, in coming together, we could get to a place where we could believe enough in mutual care and a joint investment in changing the world so that everyone has what they need an no one has more than they need, including people who cannot work due to age or disability, that we could stop violating our own principles of redistribution by saving/hoarding. i want to live in a world where no one has a retirement account because no one needs one, and it seems like that requires making that world happen by redistributing now. but its a very tall order to think that way given the current dangers of economic insecurity. at the same time, though, when i look at my life, the people who seem to feel most insecure and driven to save/hoard are those who actually are most well-off and least likely to end up in a shelter or state nursing home. i think that gets to some of the underlying emotional stuff that maintains the wealth gap.
decafdyke: pic#59953381[info]decafdyke on July 4th, 2007 04:22 am (UTC)
i don't even...
know you but i think this is an important event/workshop/conversation to have and am interested in what comes out of it.
Eli[info]eliding on July 4th, 2007 05:20 am (UTC)
This got long
Hi Dean,
This is a conversation I as a definitely rich, class privileged person have been beginning to have over the past few years with myself and with a few other people. I definitely think it's one that would be a lot better if it were done in a committed group co-education sort of way so that people don't give up or get discouraged because it's so difficult and not something we're encouraged to do--like you say, might even face intense backlash from families, friends etc, given the way capitalism works and we're all supposed to think we have to work within it.

You may have heard of them, but I know there is this group Resource Generation that does work specifically around young people with self-defined wealth, though I'm not sure about their analysis of wealth in the first place, and it does seem to be pretty non-profit & foundation focused, though again I'm not sure.

Something I'm also thinking through is the role of private education in all of this, for instance as someone told "this is your inheritance" about my scholarship-free private college education as though inheritance is a given and I'm just choosing to spend it now, and also raised to feel entitled to and expecting of a private education and inheritance at all. It also brings up the question for me of if someone has the earning power of a degree and radical, anti-poverty politics as many of my friends from a variety of class & money backgrounds do, do they have a responsibility to take a degree-requiring job somewhere that would pay them more than they need in order to give the rest away in ways that are truly useful? No, and it's obviously not that simple, but I do wonder (to get personal) about the ethics of soon having this expensive diploma and planning to be a musician and an organizer, something I definitely didn't need it for. I want to work through what earning less than one could means when it doesn't leave much to give, but also with inheritance for many of us on the eventual horizon. How do we cultivate redistributing wealth before we get to the point of having serious wealth? (Of course, figuring out what accountable, responsible redistribution/giving is together is obviously something that would take a lot of work too, as you say.)

Mainly I just wanna say I'm really excited about the idea of worksheets! And I'm excited for challenging each other (people with more than we need, however that comes to be defined) to redistribute wealth and resources every day, seeing how this stuff is played out in our everyday decisions, while also recognizing the messed upness of why we are the ones in positions to be able to decide where that money goes to begin with. I'm excited for figuring out ways to determine if, say, preparing for retirement on some financial level is necessary at all and if so, what that would/could look like in a way that is not hoarding. What would that mean? Would it require shifting toward a politics of making sure all old people and people who aren't/don't/can't work have what they need to live?
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 4th, 2007 07:40 pm (UTC)
Re: This got long
Thanks for writing this. A few things came to mind from your comments.
First, yes, I've heard of Resource Generation and have a lot of respect for them. Tyrone, who wrote the zine I mentioned, has been involved with them and offered some critiques that suggest that while they are an important group, we might want to build additional spaces too. For one thing, they are heavily allied with progressive foundations, which I totally respect and think are important institutions right now, but also am building a critique of, along the lines discussed in _The Revolution Will Not Be Funded_. Secondly, Tyrone's zine talks about how Resource Generation is focused on helping rich people take the first steps of facing guilt, shame, and immobility related to their wealth and creating space for them to talk to each other and work through that to begin to imagine activating about it. Certainly, there needs to be spaces for rich people to do this work together, but we also want to build toward more radical spaces that further incorporate the input of poor and working class people, and where people take the analysis to the next level of radicalism. Third, I think I'm really craving a space that isn't just for people who are hugely rich with trust funds, but also where we can talk about people who don't have any assets but have salaries or savings or retirement accounts or think they one day might. I don't have a trust fund and I won't inherit anything but I do make $45,000/yr which puts me into the category "rich" on a world scale and I think I have a lot of decisions to make about what it means to behave responsibly given my economic power. So, I'm hoping we could build on the principles that seem to motivate Resource Generation's work, of helping people face these taboo topics, and get even more specific and more broad and more radical with them. Thanks for bringing up that group. I'd love to get my hands on their training tools and literature, I bet it is useful. Tyrone mentioned a book called _Classified_ in his zine that I'd like to look at.
i have to continue this in another comment below because i exceeded the word limit.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 4th, 2007 07:40 pm (UTC)
Re: This got long
Second, your point about educational privilege is very, very interesting to me. I felt a lot of pressure around this when I graduated from law school. People in my family and foster family in Virginia thought it was ridiculous and possibly morally wrong that I would forgo the opportunity to make a corporate law salary ($100K+) to do poverty law for $37K. One person told me in all seriousness that she thought I was "hung up" on my mom's life and death in poverty, as if my decision to do poverty law was a misguided vengance quest. Even though I felt passionate about starting the Sylvia Rivera Law Project, I still sometimes wondered if instead I should go make a bunch of money and give it away to homeless trans people, whether that would actually make equal or more difference in their lives. Of course, I felt more strongly that building a community organization to engage the political voice of poor people was more in line with my vision of social change and long term sustainable movement practice, I did have to ask myself these questions. I think the place I come to with all of this difficult decisionmaking is that we should try to live in a way that creates the sustainable world we want to live in. So sometimes I ask myself questions like, "in the world I want to live in, do I think everyone can have/do this think I'm thinking of having/doing?" So, for example, I don't think that in a sustainable world everyone can have individually privatized disposable plastic phones, so I don't have a cell phone. I do, however, think that everyone can have meaningful work that they care about and meaningful education, so I don't think people should feel forced to pursue a certain kind of work based on the kind of education they have. If that is the way they feel most satisfied contributing to social change, great, but also, most well-paid work involves projects that actively maldistribute resources (like corporate law, or work in the mainstream entertainment industry, etc) so we have to balance the negative effects of that work against the positive effects potentially coming from getting a fancy job and giving money away. I'm not sure I'm writing this in a way that makes sense, but ultimately I believe that people should do work that is meaningful to them and doesn't violate their principles and doesn't fuck other people over or steal their labor, land or resources, so I feel okay about fancy-educated people working low-paid jobs and I don't think that has to be a waste of those resources that went into their education. However, we should and can all be active on issues related to financial aid accessibility and making public universities free again, of course.
powered by nightshades[info]srl on July 4th, 2007 11:25 pm (UTC)
Classified
Classified: How to Stop Hiding Your Privilege and Use It For Social Change is available online in PDF for free here. You can also buy a copy from the publishers at that link if you wish.
locallibrarian[info]locallibrarian on July 4th, 2007 01:07 pm (UTC)
I am so excited to see California, and I can't wait to hear all about the USSF.

Maybe it's the thousands of dollars I've redistributed to the wonderful Dr. Ticke, but I think anything like this would need to create a safe space for people's feeliings. I am so scared of being poor! I never ever ever want to be poor ever again! If I was to participate in something like this, I'd be afraid of being judged politically hopeless and made an outcast for feeling afraid. And I would hate for my feelings to be dealt with in some macho way like being told to just 'get over it,' another way of coping with the world that's all about control. Or would I need to work through those feelings somewhere else before participating in something like this?

Also, a little story. my library recently shook free around $25,000 by cancelling duplicate print periodical subscriptions. When I hit the trade floor at the American Library Association annual conference a few weeks ago, it was with the heady sense that I could buy anything I wanted. As I took the elevator down to the trade floor, I felt hot-hot-hot. I've got something all these fellas want, and they're gonna take it from me whether I like it or not. Rrrowr. It may sound cheesy, but seriously? I can't remember the last time I was that hot under the collar! I wanted to be a millionaire! This was the first time I've had the sensation of a whole buncha money, and it was surprisingly intense. we'd need to take into account things like pleasure and desire. I suppose the queers are pretty good at that already.

And finally: What are the political ends of such a group? for all of us to live lower to the ground? To make systemic change? Are there ways you see real change happening from a group of us divesting of personal wealth? Is there a difference between spending money on the throwaways of consumer capitalism like iPods and cell phones and mechanisms of concentrating wealth in the hands of the few like property ownership and professional-class retirement accounts? (These are actual questions.)

Clearly, a great conversation to have. Thanks as always for starting something.
Emma[info]sleepyduck5 on July 4th, 2007 03:54 pm (UTC)
thanks for sharing your fear of poverty. I too am terrified of being poor again. Poverty is scary and I try not to look to closely at it or my fear of poor people because of political shame about these feelings. (aka "get over it").
I think that this group is a great idea, and would love to talk more about how to disentangle my (growing) desire to hoard resources with the other question of how I live my daily life. I totally hear Dean about the ethics of self-care boiling down so often to convenience and consumption. But I struggle so much to validate the things I want (sexually, emotionally, politically) that telling myself "no, you don't want that super ginger smoothie drink to get some energy, you just want a little rest and a good cup of tea in an environment that rejuvinates you and makes you feel creative" reminds me too much of the denials I've faced all my life. "Cross you legs, don't laugh too loud" etc...
On the other hand, I know that I "indulge" myself in retail therapy far too often, and would love a way to really honestly asses what I need and want that is healthy and what is the manufactured needs of capitalistic lifestyles.
Thank you thank you thank yoo for starting this dialog.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 4th, 2007 07:48 pm (UTC)
this reminds me a lot of polyamory conversations, and how totally unhelpful it is when people tell each other "jealousy is fucked up, don't be possessive" and try to shame each other out of feelings and force each other to do even more things we're uncomfortable with. i mean, wow, that doesn't work. so i TOTALLY agree with you that we need to make a place to talk about feelings and be non-pressury and non-judgment. to create a space for bravery and experimentation without fear of social exclusion or political judgement. a way to judge and assess and analyze the politics of the wealth gap without kicking each other. i have huge insecurities about my own economic practices, and i think what i long for is a space to be real about that, to see that its so hard to find the line between self-care and greed. for example, right now i think i pay too much rent. i looked for an apartment after being without one for 3 months and feeling really scattered and freaked out and triggered from my time in foster care, living in various sublets and on people's couches. i took the second apartment i looked at. but i think i could live somewhere else and pay less and have more money to give away. i feel shame, guilt, and embarrassment about this. i want to be able to talk about that to people without being told "go easy on yourself dean, its fine, you deserve it!" which is what people often say to me when i bring these feelings up, i think partly to shut me up because this conversation makes everyone so uneasy. guilty is a primary feeling in every aspect of my life that i recognize as unproductive and immobilizing, and i think we need to learn new ways to communicate about poliitics that are not about shaming ourselves or each other to have this redistribution conversation.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 4th, 2007 07:58 pm (UTC)
and more...
apparently, i have a lot to say. more than can fit in these comment boxes. to answer your last paragraph, emily: i actually believe that curbing our spending habits and learning to give money away, even just among, say, 100 people i know who have educations and jobs and most of whom have future inheritances, could produce ENORMOUS resources for social justice movements. one thing i took away from the social forum was how small our progressive movements still are, and how much we struggle over small amounts of resources handed out by foundations that pick and choose amongst our organizations based on various whims and trends. if people like me and you could give away $10,000 a year, and maybe in a few years $20,000, and we could give it consistently to key community organizations that are helping people stay alive and lifting their voices in political struggle, and they could count on us for sustainable support with no strings attached, or if we gave that much away to homeless people or to rent arrears funds to help people facing eviction, or whatever, we could actually significantly impact social justice movements. also, if we could develop trust and confidence amongst people with the kinds of privilege we have about coping with feelings of economic insecurity, being visionary about building an economically just world, manifesting self-care in ways that are less individualist and support community, and being compassionately critical of our internalized capitalism, i think shockingly amazing things would result. i think a network like the one i'm imagining would help people think through all kinds of economic decisions we make every day, like do "boycotts" of products matter, what are the politics of sending most of your money to citibank for your student loans to protect your credit, how do we produce mutual social isolation through inviting consumerist values into our social circles, etc. i think we have to see things like ipods and cell-phones in conversation with things like retirement accounts and country homes, because one of the slipperiest things that capitalism does is make us only look upwards and never feel rich--someone else has more security, stability, wealth, so we can ignore our own decisions and just strive to hoard more. i'd like to set up a way for us all to examine our practices and see all of it as significant, but also see all of it as a source of power and political voice, not self-punishment and shame.
ephemeral material: fern icon[info]redrider on July 4th, 2007 04:21 pm (UTC)
Thanks for this post.

I've been thinking about some of these issues lately, because I inherited some money from an aunt's estate & have mixed feelings about that. After paying off some medical debt, some moving debt, some of my partner's credit card debt, and buying tickets for airfare back & forth between cities while we're living in different places for 9 months, I don't know what to do. I've never had extra money before & don't have inherited knowledge about what a person does with a few thousand dollars other than put it in a savings account.

I'd also like to get some guidance about how to live once you've made a jump in income brackets...I just started working in a professional (librarian) position at Wellesley, just moved to Boston (far more expensive than Columbus, OH where I was living before), will soon be starting to pay off student loan debt, and have mediocre health insurance (which matters since I'm a type 1 diabetic). So I have lots of fear about money & having enough of it even though I just got an awesome job & am not in a truly precarious position. It would be super-helpful to be part of a process in which we could talk about strategies and do actual worksheet-filling-out while also addressing all of the emotional work that requires -- for people who are used to having money and for those of us who aren't (and are more used to scarcity of resources than anything else).

Also: what do we do when we (children of parents living in poverty, or who are constantly unemployed, or in precarious economic & social positions) get money & our parents don't have it? That's a big issue for me right now, given how much a few thousand dollars would help my mom in an immediate way, but not in a long-term way (or I don't know how to make that happen, or if I want to).
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 4th, 2007 08:05 pm (UTC)
thanks for writing this and being so forthcoming with your dilemmas. i wrote a bit in a comment above about my own issues trying to think about how to deal with potential obligations to care for my psychiatrically disabled 74 year old father and how that factors into my feelings of financial insecurity.
you know what i think would be rad? i would love it, if you were willing, if you would write down what you think the answers to the amazing questions you bring up in this comment are. i feel like part of what we have to do, maybe, what this project might look like, is to take guesses at the answers to our own questions. what do you think are the responsible things to do with your remaining few thousand dollars? and why? i think that whatever you write, whatever ideas you experiment with, would be helpful to others to read. should that money go to your mom? should it go to local groups in your town? should it be given as cash to homeless people? should it be sent to people surviving devastation on the gulf coast or the iraq war or fighting for prison abolition or trying to save wetlands or where? i think just seeing someone trying to apply their principles to these questions and openly discussing it and what their priorities are is what we need. we need to be role models for each other in that bravery, and we need to make sure we don't throw up our hands and get stuck in the status quo that is so fear-based, right? want to give it a try?? i'm thinking of writing a new entry also, telling people what i give away and to what groups and why.
ephemeral material[info]redrider on July 6th, 2007 02:59 pm (UTC)
yes -- i think writing down what i/we do (and before that, how i'm thinking about the decisions i make) is a great idea. i'm willing to give it a try.

this post has started some productive conversation between me and one of my partners. i don't want to get into the content of the conversations we're having here, but i do find that it's interesting to note how we think differently about this issue, given our shared backgrounds (both lived with parents in relatively stable economic situations as children, then with moms struggling to make it economically -- and sometimes not making it -- in our teens), and the different economic situations of our parents now (his mom has moved out of an economically difficult situation, while my mom's situation has gotten worse).

the safety net is a big issue for me -- it's the thing that makes me feel like i *can't* give away money, even though i know i'm not in an economically precarious situation right now, and that once the partner who's moving here to boston gets a job with his professional degree, we'll be doing well enough to be almost-middle-class.

so the process of figuring out where the money goes will take some time -- but i like being able to think about it now, take my time being thoughtful & considerate with inheritance money, and make more immediate changes with the parts of my monthly pay that can be adjusted w/out any real sacrifice on my part.

again, thanks for starting a great conversation here.
(Anonymous) on July 4th, 2007 05:47 pm (UTC)
rad DS
Again another posting where I find your political thinking to be spot on, Mr. Spade. However, your affirmation that one of the ends of this politically thought provoking discussion disguised as a social event (using a more moneyed term then something us less financially inclined would) is to not create a new need for resources in the form of non-profits lead me to some interesting thoughts. If not a new non-profit which would help access the financial ability for an individual to contribute funds, but a network which would establish this type of thinking on a more DIY sense, how would one who had not committed enough time to these ideals be able to discern what the ultimate source of their contributions will be? (I may be inferring too much from your last two paragraphs in that question.)

However, I am not advocating the creation of such a non-profit which would be rather too meta for me, a non-profit to help fund other non-profits and political causes. But I do sense that in the development of this network, a good deal of education would need to be had by the facilitators of such social events. I foresee it more that the initial group of people who would start setting up these key guidelines would be more like a steering committee to future social events, where in those social events those guidelines would be disseminated with a smaller area for divergence from the guidelines.

Still, it would give financially endowed people more food for thought than current socio-political atmosphere capitalism perspires: A culture where value is placed not on the social change that one commits to, but on the resilience of one’s investment of either garnering social equivalence through such consumer products such as the newest electronics, the ability to dine with peers at the hottest new bistro, or social maintenance that one exhibits with the ownership of property. One which gets easily obfuscated through the media display of extreme wealth which disavows the poverty that most of the world is facing, where our culture’s middle-class is endowed with great financial power not known by most of the world.

As for myself, though I continue to gain in financial stability I am still filling out of the financial hole that transitioning for me and my partner and the cost of educational debt has placed us in. I am committed to financial contributions (in addition to voluntary work) to sources of political and social change that is aligned to my personal politics. Plus, we (my partner and I) have been contemplating the formation of a non-profit to allot funds to trans individuals, one that we may start as a fund that would go to people but would more than likely grow into a trans rights/funding non-profit (with all of the implications that 501(C)(3) status holds) since his education will allocate more funds than any professional teaching I may get in the future would allow. Thus, we are making plans for our financial future with these types of thoughts in our heads.

One last thing: in your self-assessment of your own exclusion (“nothing to lose”) from this analysis is just the type of thought that would need to be perpetuated in those participants of this network that do not consider themselves wealthy. Those that do not have trust-funds and future inheritance who need help understanding that even slightly elevated financial status (i.e. middle class) need to have this type of approach to your proposed network: there is nothing to lose but the political inactivity they may currently have.

PS: am going to read that book you mention in your first paragraph.
Que Viva[info]queernewsielove on July 5th, 2007 12:01 am (UTC)
this is a lot...
It’s so interesting to read this now. I just got a non-profit “gay for pay” salary job after years of working for around $8 an hour at a local independent book store/coffee shop that up until this year when the Colorado minimum wage was increased paid all of their starting employees (any department or job) $6.25 an hour with a $.25 raise at six months and every year after that.

I feel the pressure (internal/external) to up my standard of living. I’m making more than twice as much as I was. I now make $32,000 a year. That’s been a rough bench mark for a while as the max I really intend to make. I’ve been thinking a lot about what this wage increase means for me. It’s interesting because my first reaction was fear. I’ve gotten so used to living on $12,000 a year that I’m afraid to make more money. I know that being afraid is not the way I want to engage with money. When I got this new job I was having a lot of conversations about salary negotiations. It’s this weird thing where I’ve just been offered a salary that sounds huge to me and people are telling me that I should be asking for more. My friend Maggie had a really smart take on this. She talked about what it means to be folks socialized as girls not to ask for or about money or to be paid a matched (market) wage for our work. It’s another way that I’ve been taught to take what’s offered. It’s this tension I’m trying to balance where I really don’t need more than $32000 to live and have all of my basic needs met and much much more. And what about negotiating for more money with this non-profit who works for/with queer survivors of abuse in a really intentional multi-issue way?

Having this money sitting in the bank makes me think about what I can buy. I’m thinking about things that I’ve lived very well without for years or my entire life but construct myself as semi-needing. One of those things is a computer and another one is a car. I don’t need a car. It’s a luxury that my new salary could facilitate but also buys me interdependence with this money sucking thing that I then believe I need for transportation. When I think about reasons I would want a car most of them are about consumerism. It forces me to re-think what I can get done in a day. They have this thing in Seattle called the Flexcar program. Basically you pay a certain amount a month (I think its $35) and then you get to use one of their cars whenever you’d like. It’s a certain amount per hour something like $5-$10 depending on how you sign up. I’ve been thinking about how this could fit into my life. It’s interesting to think about driving as cost per hour. I know that when I own a car I often drive even when there are other viable options. It feels like I’m much less likely to use a car when I know that that hour costs me $5. I just signed up but have not actually tried this out yet. When I signed up I was envisioning using the car for things like groceries. I end up spending less on groceries and consequently eating at my house and cooking more when I can buy a bunch of groceries all at once (ie more than I can carry walking or on my bike).

I’m someone who doesn’t depend on money from parents but does have financial support from my parents in ways that are important to name. I grew up middle class in ways that varied depending on my mom’s mental health stuff. I come from a family that has the resources to offer financial assistance if/when crises were to occur. I don’t do a good job of naming this privilege.

Dean, I love the idea of creating semi-social spaces to talk about our engagement with money and how we can do this is an intentional community minded way. It feels so important to have these conversations in my life. One of the things that happens when I start to talk about this is that I get a lot of push back from other folks usually in non-profit jobs about things like self-care without a real analysis about who’s rich and what does it mean to hoard wealth within our radical/political communities. I know I do better when there are other people in my daily life having these conversations and supporting each other in our daily decisions about money.

Thank you so much for posting this. My head is spinning with ideas.

shannon


RMJ[info]raccoontoy on July 5th, 2007 02:46 pm (UTC)
race and philanthrophy
One of the high points of my graduate schooling was winning an small fellowship (in the less than a thousand dollar range) from a fund created by a Chinese family. It's the first and only time I've ever won a fellowship/scholarship/award created specifically by a person of color. And I still get a thrill every time I see a university building that's been donated or named after an API person/family.

Working in Boston now, I find myself growing more aware of the the complex ways in which the whiteness of the donor pool for a lot of activist work... at least in the circles I run in. And there seems to be a certain feedback loop where the absence of a financial incentive for diversity in organizations makes diversity and anti-racism become something to be put off as always the "next agenda item". Never off the table but never full on either.

And it becomes a disincentive for me to donate to organizations.

I'd like to be involved in your workshop. Massachusetts and the New England region offers, I think a valuable perspective on a lot of this.

Richard
powered by nightshades[info]srl on July 7th, 2007 12:42 pm (UTC)
Re: race and philanthrophy
And there seems to be a certain feedback loop where the absence of a financial incentive for diversity in organizations makes diversity and anti-racism become something to be put off as always the "next agenda item". Never off the table but never full on either.

I wonder about the viability of a capacity-building donation strategy: a fund staffed by people of color to give incentive funding to organizations when they think beyond middle-class and wealthy white people's problems. Obviously, there are plenty of ways this could go awry, but I like the idea. If I could give my pennies into a fund that would specifically fund activist jobs for queer or working-class people of color, I'd do it.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 8th, 2007 11:59 pm (UTC)
Re: race and philanthrophy
i think you're really right, that most non-profits do not do the work they need to to engage meaningful anti-racist organizational development practices, and especially in the realm i know most about--LGBT non-profits--the most well-funded organizations are the worst offenders. there are so many great resources for non-profits to work on this stuff (like Dismantling Racism, the really amazing anti-racist org development group that SRLP has been working with for the last 2 years), and i wish that foundations would make it a requirement that orgs do that work. of course, most foundations don't have a anti-racist analysis within their own work that would lead them to see the need to focus resources on anti-racist org development for grantees. i think these are the reasons that i give to orgs that have majority people of color governance and staffing, of which there are many great choices. those orgs tend to get less resources because of systemic racism, but to create what i think are the most innovative models for social change. it feels meaningful to me, personally, to support that under-resourced work because i think those models are actually going to create the most significant differences, as opposed to the model of white-governed, white-staffed LGBT orgs that tend to offer only reform strategies that preserve the status quo. rickke mananzala and i are writing an article right now about what the emerging trans organizations can learn from the critique of the non-profit industrial complex and the failures of the mainstream LGBT orgs to be anti-racist and politically progressive. i can email it to you if you'd like. its still rough but i feel we're trying to get at this issue, centrally, of what organizational governance and staffing practices could/should be like.
nickgorton[info]nickgorton on July 9th, 2007 11:35 pm (UTC)
Long Answer - part 1
Redistribution of wealth was less complex for me ten years ago. But now I make six figures and support two adults, partially support 3 other adults and a 15 year old boy. And with the 15 year old is the need for 'good schools.' So I have disability and life insurance, a retirement account, and am buying a house this year. I have become a very non-cool person who thinks about mortgages, the AMT, and the benefits of dental insurance.

I do work ~1/3 of my clinical hours as a physician pro bono at an NPO. And I gave about 13% of my gross to tax deductible charities last year plus another 10% non-deductible donations and expenses for volunteer work. I drive a 5 year old civic with 160k miles and next month am taking my first non-working vacation in 3 years. I am not ascetic, but I don't have too much rampant consumerism.

But things are more complicated now. I won't give up safety and security that I need to provide for those dependent on me by living on 'just enough' to survive and giving away the rest. We live in a society with virtually no safety net, so I won't work without one. So I save. And I spend enough on very good insurance so we will never go without what we need. I do work *more* to donate time and money to help, but not at the expense of those who need me.

Of course that explains the retirement and the mortgage, but not everything. ;) For the most part my gadgets are ones I use solidly – often for work in ways not duplicated by low tech solutions. And I'd rather have a tricked out used gadget than the newest thing. My years old cell is ugly, non-blue-tooth, and selected for near indestructibility (it survived flying from a car at 20mph, swims in the toilet, and being dropped daily). If I got a new cell I would be more interested in the Neo1973 (the first cell with hardware independent open-sourced user interface based on the Linux kernel - http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html) than an over-hyped and over-priced iPhone.

And.... I also like eating good food and giving presents. This is largely from growing up in crushing poverty in Pennsylvania in the 70s and 80s. I recall many days where the only food I ate was in my free school lunches. I recall Christmases where we did not have a tree, much less presents. The consequences were not malnutrition or lack of possessing certain things, but feelings of insecurity, shame, and unworthiness. At the time I didn't understand the reason my classmates got presents when I didn't was not because I had been naughty and they had been nice. At the time I only knew that the poor kids got green lunch cards and other kids got yellow lunch cards. Yellow of course meant that you could get chocolate milk. (If I ever meet the jackoff who came up with that wretched class-based nightmare, I might reconsider pacifism and beat the snot out of him. Of course he's probably 80 so that would just ruin it for me.) But as an ultimate result (in addition to recurrent fantasies of assaulting octogenarians) I am now a man with an eating disorder and a fetish for giving gifts.

And I love to give gifts. Especially at the mid-winter holiday of your choice. Every year since my early twenties I go (somewhat guiltily) to the mall's 'angel tree' and select at least one kid who wants a bike – because they are unlikely to get that and I want them to have it. My first year out of residency I did that enough times in one season that the woman at the mall recognized me and started thinking I was creepy, so I had to find another mall with another tree. I should probably go to therapy to work on that, but to be honest, I get a rush like mainlining heroin when I do that, so I am unlikely to change. And while I have put the breaks on some of my food issues (I used to weigh ~300lbs) they are never going to go totally away. Now I just don't waste calories on crappy food. (continued)
nickgorton[info]nickgorton on July 9th, 2007 11:43 pm (UTC)
Re: Long Answer - part 2
Oddly enough, the day I read Dean's post, my BF shipped Dean's 30th birthday present. Maybe I was prescient so I included a note explaining I thought he would enjoy the gift in 1 of 2 ways: 1) keeping it as something he'd use and enjoy or 2) giving it to someone unable to afford one and could use it. Its a gadget (not a cell – I'm not crazy), but its a serviceable one that I got for a steal. (A good present must be a good value. Any schmuck can spend a lot. Barter for it on Craigslist and its different.) Dean's reply to an email cemented that I was right the ways he'd *enjoy* it – its as much fun to give something away as have it. Its not only social justice ideals, but he's an ex-welfare kid too who can *empathize* rather than sympathize with the person receiving it. Having been in real need of a dollar, you know what it feels like to have someone give you that dollar. We both like making someone feel that way.

I got chest surgery in San Francisco. My partner (Dan) and I were walking down Castro the day after and went to an ice cream shop. Dan asked me if I noticed the transwoman on the sidewalk outside once when we were inside eating our ice cream. I looked out and saw her – she looked homeless. She was wearing a dress, long hair, heavy weathered make-up, and was sitting curled up with her head down next to her possessions in a few bags. She had a few days stubble but she had obviously been on some sort of hormones.

I felt nauseated. I was buying (overpriced) ice cream, staying at a B&B, recovering from my $8,000 surgery, and having a nice (albeit sore) vacation to the worlds capital of queer. I'd recently ('bravely') come out in suburban Louisiana and was returning to start practicing as Nick Gorton, MD. I was assured by my department head and the chief of staff I would keep my job, but... some redneck might look at me sideways if he figured out - unlikely since I already had a lot of passing privilege. She was – despite constant real threat of violence and rejection due to lack of access to care and a chance to pass – living genuinely in her identity. I was the loser in the 'transer than thou' game.

I felt ashamed and terrified. I wanted to give her something, but I was shit scared to even engage her – that she would see I was not 'really' trans and tell me to fuck off. I went into the bathroom and emptied my wallet and wadded a little over $100 into a piece of paper. (Somehow wadding money into a paper to pass someone must be done in a toilet... not sure why.) I went out and tapped her on the shoulder. She seemed asleep and was startled that I was talking to her. I said 'I want to give you something so you can get something to eat and get warm.' She took it and stood, thanked me, and made small talk. After a while, she asked me if she could hug me? (Not in a way that seemed she expected the answer to be yes.) I said yes and she hugged me like a bear – and squeezed my drains so hard I yelped. She looked worried she'd pissed me off by hugging too tight, so I lifted my shirt to show her my drains. I said 'we're in the same boat, we're just crossing to different sides of the river.' When it dawned on her what I meant she said 'Oh! You're becoming a *boy*. That's wonderful and congratulations on your surgery, honey. You make a very handsome man!' That was one of the most validating experiences I've had as a transperson – because this woman who was 'really trans' was welcoming and accepting of me. We talked a little more and then we walked away. About a block away she must have opened the paper and realized it has 10s and 20s and screamed: “Thank you so much! I love you!”

I gave her money but I got something of greater value. I got pleasure at making someone happy for a time. I got to throw a grain of sand into the machine of wealth inequality. I got validated as a 'real tranny' by a 'real tranny'. I got a big and real (if slightly painful) hug. I was called handsome. I was even feeling less pain (endorphins?). I even enjoyed the rest of my ice cream Dan brought with him when I couldn't eat it after I saw her. When you give stuff away the right way its really an equal trade. It doesn't have to be everything you have, just meaningful for you and for the person receiving it.

Nick
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 10th, 2007 05:07 am (UTC)
Re: Long Answer - part 2
nick, thanks so much for posting all this. i think you bring up the really crucial issues about how to provide adequate security for people who depend on you. as you know, i admire your generosity so much. i am pretty sure you give more of your time and skills to social movement work for free than almost anyone i know who also works a really demanding paid job. i actually still can't quite understand how you work overnight in the ER part of the week, which must be full of retraumatizing scenes of poor people living without adequate health care, and then work days the rest of the week at the clinic and doing all kinds of writing and research on medical issues that trans movement lawyers need for our cases. who else do i know who flies across the country on their own money to visit a trans person in jail or prison and push the doctors there to give them health care they need? and then, somehow, you still remember to send me a birthday present that makes me laugh out loud and cry after a long day.

i met with one of my students today and she told me she is taking wills and trusts, a class i never took because its usually about rich people and inheritance, but i realized i really needed her to find out everything she can about ways of creating communal property. i think we really need to address the issue of caring for dependents. its one thing for me to thing about giving away money now and not saving for old age and deciding to fight for change and mutual care and the world i want to live in, etc. its another thing for people who support others to put others in that vulnerable position, to make that choice for them. i ridiculously was thinking about pet insurance today, and how pet insurance is often just a pot of money people collect together that they can draw from if a pet has a big expense--like all insurance is pooled risk but other types are more centrally about profit for insurance companies i think. anyway, i wondered how we could begin to imagine pooling our risk in different kinds of communities, but in a way where if people couldn't contribute they didn't have to. clearly, our welfare state is supposed to be something like that, but its always be punitive and based on the notion that poverty is a moral shortcoming, and its been decimated in the last decades, so i wonder if we can think of models that are more local. i think sometimes about transy house in brooklyn, where some trans women just opened their home to homeless trans women. they knew the shelter system was totally inaccessible to their community, and they made a shelter themselves. its not perfect, but i think its the right idea, and i think those models, kinda like the models of community justice people are coming up with as alternatives to policing and courts and prisons, are what we have to develop. i hope people will share stories they know of that include collective care and open participation for people in need. i find them helpful, and i take this problem that you pose, nick, about dependents, very seriously. thanks.
nickgorton[info]nickgorton on July 12th, 2007 07:47 am (UTC)
Re: Long Answer - part 2
The biggest problem with health care is that the possible costs are higher than any small collective could sustain. The potential for one individual to have tremendous costs for health care is not high, and multiplied across the whole population it is absorbable. But in a collective of 100 people, one child with leukemia or one infant born with a heart defect requiring a transplant could bankrupt the whole group. Realistically you can look at it like self-insurance for corporations. It only becomes a reasonable risk when you are talking at least a thousand people – and not ones self-selected to just buy into the plan. There has to be an element of 'requirement' of participation.

So just putting an ad on craigslist is not going to work. Because health insurers are skimming off the healthy top, and because such a collective would be built on principles such as no one should be turned away or charged more because of illness and pre-existing conditions would not be excluded, you would be screwed. The healthy people who would choose to buy Kaiser would not be in your plan, but desperate people who were unable to go anywhere else would flock you your collective. Its the hawks and doves. If the health insurance industry is being hawkish, that ties you hands.

An important part of the 'everybody in, nobody out' concept is 'everybody in'. Without that, risk selection would kill you. You have to be able to get the young and healthy to contribute. If that is purely voluntary, you will have fewer of the young and healthy to carry the bills for the ill.

Nick
(Anonymous) on July 18th, 2007 03:08 pm (UTC)
Re: Long Answer - part 2
I am glad you bring this topic up because I have been reading along this entire conversation and I haven't really had anything to contribute. There were times I could have said "yes" or "I agree" or "I think about that too" to differnet people but I didn't have anything original to say.

I come from a family with "old money" although I don't currently have very much of it. Still, I think about what I will do when I can access that money, and I think about how much to keep as a "safety net" for my family and friends. There is a complication that has not yet been discussed, though, that is something I would really like to talk through with others.

My partner (who does not come from a family with "old money") has a disability that is extremely expensive to treat. (ie. $400,000 per year in a good year or more in a bad year). That's more money than I can really imagine having, particularly in a year.

As I type, I know that our insurance company has just denied a $50,000 claim we made a few months ago for a couple of weeks of treatment. I have no idea what we would do if we actually had to pay that money - perhaps I could convince my family to chip in, but I have a fair amount of faith that we will be able to complain enough times to make them pay the money. (We've done it many times before.)

But insurance companies constantly change their terms and most insurance companies have a life-time cap of what they will spend on you and it's no thigh enough to be sustainable so we have chosen jobs specifically based on the insurance that they provide and whether it has a life time cap (eg. 1 million dollars). And sometimes employers make what seem to them like minor adjustments in the insurance they provide but cause us to go scrambling for new jobs. Because of privilege related to the degrees we hold, at least one of us has been able to find a job each time that covers domestic partners and has appropriate insurance. It is not fair that we are able to access this health care when others are not but on the other hand I think that everyone should be able to have appropriate health care.

I know that sometimes I/we use this issue as a reason to hoard unnecessarily but it's hard to know what is necessary and what is unnecessary. What happens if this $50,000 claim is actually denied this time and we can't get more drugs until we pay it? (Not that we even could pay it right now but should we save up that much money? We talk about it and we aren't sure whether or not we need to.) We have had trouble connecting with and really engaging with others facing similar issues with similar sets of politics to ours. Between taboos around discussing wealth and taboos around discussing disability, the odds seem stacked against us.

And yes we would totally screw up your health care collective but luckily so far we have found corporate options.

mb (dean - I took a class you taught one time but am using my initials instead of my name because my name is fairly unique and my post is not just about me)
(Anonymous) on July 19th, 2007 12:09 am (UTC)
Re: Long Answer - part 2
I wanted to add that there are serious problems with these fears that I am aware of but have trouble internalizing.

1. If the problem is that I am insecure about health care, the answer doesn't have to be, and in fact isn't money. Because of capitalism, no amount would ever be enough to make me feel "secure."

2. Obviously this whole insecurity is generated by the capitalism of the health care industry. The drug in question is not that expensive to produce and the company has recouped several times its R&D costs so the whole situation is caused by a system that is terrible in the first place and certainly be taken for granted.

A more general non-health care specific question this raises is how do we survive and live on in the meantime while we are fighting for radical change. This just seems to be a very corporeal (literally) example.