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04 July 2007 @ 01:09 pm
a good conversation  
wow, lots of exciting conversation going on in the comments to my post below about giving away money. to that end, i thought i'd make a new post with some things that have come to mind. it seems like part of what i'm imagining is that we might do what i see people doing in various environmental and food justice movements which is help each other have more information and ideas for doing things in new ways that match their ideals. so, people are telling each other about how to do things differently, how to know the impact they are having on the world by how they eat or build or dress or parent, and hopefully its done in a way that decreases feelings of guilt and apathy and increases feelings of possibility and creativity. i want us to do that about economic justice and wealth redistribution, make it personal, creative, mutually supported and brave. its easy to name the problems with giving away money, the fears and concerns, and that is important, but let's also share what we're doing that we feel good about and why so people can get ideas if they want.

here are my thoughts on where i give money and how:
1) i try to give money to every homeless person who asks me for it, usually $1-5. my motivations are multiple, but probably the biggest one is that i hate that people pretend they don't hear people asking for money and i want to acknowledge these requests and acknowledge that i share cities with people who are far worse off than me and that i benefit from an economy that houses and clothes and entertains me and kills others. i also want other people to see me giving to homeless people and to reject horrendous notions that people still believe in and that motivate the war on the poor, like that homeless people should only be given food and not cash because they are morally culpable for their homelessness and will make bad decisions with cash. homeless people aren't homeless because they make bad financial decisions. i feel like giving away cash is a symbolic acknowledgement of that. homeless people know more about the economy that most anyone, from my perspective, and are the best experts in what they need to do with any resources that come their way to survive.
2) i give money to non-profit organizations. i'll try to make a complete list in the order of who i give the most to first.
a) sylvia rivera law project. obviously, and organization very close to my heart where i worked for years and with which i still do a lot of work as a non-staff collective member now. i am passionate about how srlp operates as a collective non-profit. some of the features that most excite me: everyone gets paid the same regardless of educational attainment or position, no one works without benefits, the organization is focused on being governed by and for those it serves and being staffed by and for, meaning that majority governance power and staffing is always people of color and trans/intersex/gender non-conforming. you can learn more about the structure at www.srlp.org. also, i have seen first hand that SRLP, which has provided free legal help to something like 800 or 1000 people in the last 5 years, does work that literally saves peoples lives who have nowhere else to turn because of the interesecting race, class, and gender discrimination they face when trying to get basic help. i really believe in this model of providing survival services and politicizing people at the same time. i don't think we can afford to do either one without the other.
b) fierce!, audre lorde project, critical resistance. these three organizations are people of color governed, focused on building mass resistance through leadership development and direct organizing, and are committed to an intersectional analysis that builds models of resistance and change that comprehend racism, imperialism, colonialism, heterosexism, transphobia, xenophobia, and the impacts of the prison industrial complex. these orgs speak a politics that is hard to find anywhere, and support communities and build leadership that has been consistently marginalized in most gay activism.
c) center for lesbian and gay studies. i give money to this group because it is pushing forward a vision of political queer analysis and scholarship from an embattled public school system (CUNY) and consistently supports scholarship and ideas that engage race politics, trans politics, disability politics and other key areas where i think we need to develop our thinking and writing as part of movement building.
d) project south. this is a group i'm just getting to know that i think does really important work around political education and thinks about movement building in a way that i admire.
e) FFLIC Hurricane Relief Fund. this is where i chose to send money after katrina, in addition to critical resistance, because they were focusing on issues faced by youth in juvenile jails in the area and i was particularly concerned about how people who are "thrown away" into the prison industrial complex would survive the disaster.
other groups that i'm interested in these days that i think are doing key political work that is under-valued by philanthropy and is essential to building the world we need are incite, southerners on new ground and the miami workers' center.
i also give money to specifica emergent needs, like the recent fundraising for the families of the Jersey 4 (4 young black queer women who were railroaded in a criminal case motivated by racism, sexism and homophobia and given enormous criminal sentences), and to people i know who are raising money for things like political trips to their countries of origin or to other key places in their movement work, or for their surgery funds. part of this is about participating in an ethic of money sharing amongst friends and making sure people feel supported by their communities. i do want us to move past a model of individual surgery benefit parties and toward a model of pooling funds and giving the money away in a need-based framework, because i think that the people with resources to throw parties are not always those with the greatest financial need, but i still want to contribute to those benefits while they are going on.
i don't have a consistent, planned way i give to these groups but i would like to. often i just respond to their mailings, except with SRLP where i donate particular funds that come my way like certain proceeds of speaking engagements. i hope that one thing we could do if we develop this group conversation is talk about how to build a consistent practice, recognizing that we can build stronger social movement infrastructure if we can consistently support organizations and allow them to rely on our gifts by telling them ahead of time how much we can contribute and letting them budget that in, especially by making multi-year pledges. i definitely starting giving more money away when i started struggling to raise money to keep SRLP's doors open, and seeing how hard that was, and how unjust the process of grant-giving is, and how much work small organizations do to keep our communities alive and push political mobilization.
the whole point, to me, is to recognize that i want to end wealth, that any extra money i have (not that it is easy to figure out what is extra and what is necessity in capitalism) does not belong to me, and came to me through a variety of practices of maldistribution that i am responsible to correct. sharing this list is not about celebrating my generosity, but rather about being open about my internal process, and inviting you to do so as well, so we can talk about what giving money away looks like, how and why we do it, how we can increase it and make choices about it and support each other in doing so.
also, i want to add a couple other notes about an economic practice/principle that is important to me. i think that profiting off someone else's housing is wrong. i think no one should own housing the don't live in, and i think we shouldn't make a profit off subletting if that is something we do. when i sublet my apartment, i do it for the amount of rent i would pay for that period or less. profiting off someone else's basic living needs, off of just solely having the privilege of owning real estate or a lease and having more than you need, seems to me to a be a basic tenet of capitalism, like inheritance, that i would like to see abolished. in general, i'd like us to move away from private ownership, but for now, i definitely think we should move away from landlordship and profiting off other people's need to be housed. home ownership and land ownership is more complicated politically and i would love to see people help each other develop some ways of thinking about this, especially in the context of gentrification and all of us living on land stolen from native people. as i watch white people who identify as activists buy apartments in historically poor and/or people of color neighborhoods in new york and philly, i feel like we need a conversation about those choices and what they mean and what factors lead to them and what alternatives are. even in terms of people i know who are talking about buying rural land to create communal living space, i think we should talk about the fact that only some people can do that, and that land struggles are the backbone of imperial and colonial projects, and what it means for non-native people, especially white people, in the US to participate in the land economy. i don't have answers to this, but i would be so excited to be a part of meaningful conversations with other people concerned about building shared analysis and political practice regarding this topic.
 
 
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locallibrarian[info]locallibrarian on July 4th, 2007 09:35 pm (UTC)
I give to the same two organizations every month. Every time I get a raise, I recalibrate my monthly giving. I charge it to a credit card, so the giving is automatic. Okay, okay, maybe circulating my money through a bank is a problem, but it's a way to give sustainably and not at the whim of my memory, in a way that says, You can count on me, once a month, without fail. I think that helps organizations plan.

I have a friend who is a tax resister, and the tax resisters are really great. Everybody pays the equivalent of their taxes into a fund that supports resisters who get walloped by the IRS--it's a way to guarantee the use of the social wage in a way that the community supports. Maybe part of the answer is in pooling money to allow us to support each other in those moments of actual crisis--somebody needs wisdom teeth pulled, somebody else needs an abortion, somebody's parent is sick. As a person who is pretty committed to living alone, I'd love a way to share funds without having to live my daily life in community.
(no subject) - [info] on July 4th, 2007 11:24 pm (UTC)
locallibrarian[info]locallibrarian on July 5th, 2007 12:31 am (UTC)
Yup. What do we make and what do we actually do with it. I'm glad to see some numbers starting to roll out--it's always the Great Big Secret--which makes the recent supreme court decision about pay discrimination particularly insidious. I just got a big ol' raise and will be making $45K starting next month. That's a whole lotta money. And just like it was when I made $28K working at the public library and just like it was when I was in college making no dollars and just like it was when I made $70K writing about barware for the internet, I live just fine and am always afraid I'm about to lose everything. Wha?!
mister disco[info]theorybitch on July 5th, 2007 02:24 am (UTC)
I'm still only just above the poverty line, earning something like $24,000 a year, and because I'm also paying off debts, really not having that much to actually use to support myself. But there are all sorts of privileges I access because my family helps out. (Although the politics of getting them to do so are intense: I am the supposedly 'self reliant' sibling, and my younger brother has been supported through college, and in his 'need' for stuff like cars and computers, in a way I never was. So I tend to do a lot of prodding about the equitable distribution of gifts.) At the moment I'm not giving away very much money. I give money to people who are begging; I buy more food/household stuff because my housemate is on a lower income; and I tend to do random 'money-giving' associated with various political projects I'm involved with.

In terms of giving and non-profits, I think it's kind of important not to see giving money away as the only thing to do -- I know a lot of people who are suspicious of how philanthropic wealth is distributed, or who worry that their donations will only go towards administration. Those people seem to either a)default to the big charities, which is hugely problematic because they're usually run by churches or conservative NGO's, or b) go searching for random political causes they can give money to, usually far away from where they live. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it means that people migrate to causes that they respond to in a 'personal' or symptomatic way, and they might still have no idea what's happening on the ground in that particular nonprofit, or what the underflying political agenda is. I think this can be particularly the case with indigenous rights causes; often the actual struggles are really difficult to get to physically, and because indigenous people are always being set upon each other by states as a way to divide and conquer, lots of micropolitical struggles happen within indigenous communities, which can be totally hard to navigate. And that's even without that really dominant racialised/classed attitude of 'charitable benevolence', where donations to non-white or indigenous causes are supposed to aid 'self-improvement', along with adherence to some moral code.

One solution to that problem is to say, maybe we need to try to give locally, and in a way that really take account of the geographical dislocations we're in that can foster those really racialised assumptions about the 'right way to help people'. Either that or we need to be conscientious about understanding the nonprofits we give money to, in a complex way, not just 'visits'. And on the other hand (this sort of problematises what I just wrote above) there's a real need to relinquish the desire to control the money we give away once it's given, and to see donations as part of an exchange where suddenly a donor has a 'right' to direct political projects.
[info]tyronius on July 5th, 2007 06:33 am (UTC)
Wow, I'm so incredibly excited about this conversation! Dean, my conversation with you at the building a queer left event got me thinking a lot about how to create a space like the one you're describing, and I think it's so needed and important. Political conversations about class/finances/wealth/giving/consumerism and the way we personally relate to these things are missing from so much of the conversation about social justice and building the world we want to see. It seems to me like a huge gaping obvious hole, because how can we talk seriously about economic justice and wealth redistribution when we aren't looking at how these concepts relate to our own lives? I have a million thoughts about this, but here are a few things bouncing around in my head after just coming out of the social forum:
1) The USSF totally fed my obsession with INCITE and all the other amazing activists who are critically analyzing the nonprofit industrial complex right now. There was a panel/discussion on The Rev Will Not Be Funded, and one of the many inspiring things about it was hearing Paula Rojas talk about Sista II Sista (a women of color collective in brooklyn), and describing their process of going from a volunteer collective to a 501c3 and back again when they discovered the nonprofit model wasn't working for them. It sounded like an incredibly hard process (and she mentioned having a lot of doubts about the organization's ability to survive the transition), but it was amazing to hear about their decision to move away from the nonprofit model when it started to affect their group's integrity. One of the things that she mentioned being particularly hard was how dynamics around class and sustainability came up when folks who had been working together for years making the same salary suddenly faced a a situation where some of them were making professional salaries as teachers or something, and some of them were making $7/hour working at a grocery store - and how that affected their relationships and their ability to contribute to the collective and so much other stuff. She was talking about the vision of collective income sharing, and how - even though they weren't there yet as an organization - that is a model of building movements and community and sustainability in a radical way. I'm really inspired by this line of thinking and I think it has a lot of meaning for all folks doing social justice work, regardless of class. It's connected to what Dean was saying about living in a way that reflects the world we're ultimately trying to create. (now I have to post again 'cause I'm writing too much)
Eli[info]eliding on July 5th, 2007 08:18 pm (UTC)
Hi Tyrone. I'd really like to get a copy of your zine. Can you respond here or e-mail me at econley@oberlin.edu and let me know how? Thanks!
[info]tyronius on July 5th, 2007 08:49 pm (UTC)
If you send me an email (tyronius.samson@gmail.com) with your mailing address I will send you a copy!
timothy[info]heavyleg on July 6th, 2007 10:51 pm (UTC)
i would also like a copy! i'll email you.
[info]tyronius on July 5th, 2007 06:38 am (UTC)
2) In terms of giving money, I've been thinking a lot about how/where/why we give and what it means in a bigger picture (like Dean said, I wrote a zine about this which I'd be excited to share and get feedback on if anyone's interested). Okay, so another thing about the Rev Won't Be Funded panel (I really think that book and all the analysis around it is so incredibly useful and important) - in the introduction to the panel, Eric Tang gave this really fast and brief history of the rise of the nonprofit industrial complex, and one of the things he named was this phenomenon where young white people with class privilege were radicalized by civil rights and other 60s and 70s social justice movements, then inherited money and started foundations with the goal of supporting social change. Even though these folks and their foundations were well intentioned, it's so easy for class privilege, white supremacy, capitalism, etc. to seep into everything when rich white folks are the ones making the decisions and controlling the funds. So social justice groups started becoming 501c3s so they could apply for grants from these foundations, they became increasingly reliant on and accountable to elite funders rather than their actual constituency, started feeling pressure to "sell" their work to foundations, and so on - and then it becomes the nonprofit industrial complex. Anyway, I feel like I and the folks I work with in Resource Generation are like the next generation of radicalized (or for some maybe just vaguely progressive) people with inherited wealth, and I'm so involved with this questions of what to do with that. How do we let go of control, redistribute wealth without strings attached, and do it in a way that supports grassroots organizing led by people who are directly dealing with poverty, racism, and other forms of oppression? It's hard not to fall into the machine of "philanthropy," because there are already so many channels for giving through foundations, and a lot of foundations really do give to important work and try to do it in accountable and anti-racist ways. And if we (meaning folks with wealth/class-privilege in various forms) don't give through these established channels (like activist-led re-granting institutions) and instead just give to individual organizations that excite us, it brings up all these questions about access, and what groups we know about and like and why, and how we bring our own privilege to the table.
3) So to me, the best way to start dealing with this stuff is by moving towards honesty about class and wealth. I get really excited by ideas about total transparency around finances. Something else I've been thinking about a lot from The Rev Won't Be Funded is conversation about "the cop in our heads and hearts," and how capitalism infiltrates us personally and affects how we see and interact with the world. Capitalism turns money, property, class, etc. into these really personal, individual experiences, and I think that gives us really skewed perspectives when dealing with these things. It keeps our decisions around money from being engaged with community, which makes it impossible to really challenge the way we deal with capitalism in our own lives. Facts about budget, income, savings, and so on are things that we so often keep secret even in radical communities...for me, being really honest and transparent about these things is a way to open myself up to support and challenge and education from all the people around me, rather than just trying to deal with it all myself.
locallibrarian[info]locallibrarian on July 5th, 2007 01:21 pm (UTC)
Hear hear tyronius, thank you for your wonderful thoughts! I absolutely agree with you about moving toward transparency when it comes to the real numbers. "Money" is abstract and has all this magicalness attached to it. I've been thinking about ways to make money more real, and talking actual numbers might be a way. The secrecy involved in how much cash everybody has is really intense, and a key to how capitalism insidiously keeps us all separate from one another. And I'd love to hear more about "the cop in our heads and hearts," wondering if its like the fascism of everyday life I've read other theorists talking about.

I'd love too to talk more about the necessary conditions for income sharing. I've often done that with friends/lovers/family in small non-systematic ways, but a larger scale project that didn't revolve around my emotional ties to other individuals would be something I'd be really interested in. my work is fulfilling and I feel called to it and meant to work in this way, so I'll likely continue making about $45K for awhile. I'd be interested in putting some of that in a pot to enable other kinds of important work.
(Anonymous) on July 10th, 2007 05:23 pm (UTC)
money actions (in progress)
This is my first time on a live journal and am overwhelmed to be sitting at a computer ready this amazingly insightful process. Thanks everyone.

I have similar feeling/thoughts coming from USSF and the Revolution won't be Funded workshop. Thanks for being so insightful Tyronious. I am currently in the process of developing a giving plan for my excessive money. The thoughts and actions I have going on right now are:

1. Talking to my family about money. At first this seemed like a great place to start to find out the lessons I had inherited (along with money)- and I am realizing that these conversations are making it harder for me to go forward with a plan that sizably decreases/eradicates my money inheritance, but at the same time is making it clearer for me the obstacles that come up with money. So I think now instead of asking questions of family I want to move forward into discussing with them a vision for a different way to be with money. Because it is easier for me to criticize the way certain family members are investing money than it is for me to talk about the ways I am LEARNING to invest and ultimately give. Now is a great time in my learning to show my process to my family AND to be (hopefully) supported by folks who are interested in wealth redistribution.
2. Talking to my dearest friends/family about money. I realized that although my friends knew I had money to pay for school that they didn't have a figure to go along with that feeling. So being really open, transparent, about how much money I have and the steps I am taking with that money have been really liberating and I have gained a lot of insight in the process. Friends also have politics similar to mine and so it is an easier space to create vision than with my family.
3. Worksheets. Looking at money and writing down goals. I think this is where I often get trapped and encourage myself to plow forward. Because it is hard to know what the future will look like and it is easier to envision and read theory than it is to get into the nuts and bolts of what giving money looks like. Resource Generation has some giving plan workbooks that I got from USSF, but I would like to do some figuring on my own goals before diving into a particular model. This means today taking a large piece of paper and writing down how much money I have made/used in the last couple years, how much money I have to give away, and goals for a sustainable giving practice. I think that support and challenge are crucial in this process, I also think establishing (and reevaluating annually) personal goals are important.
4. Also, I am really questioning what family means and the ways "families" support/don't support each other. One aspect of my giving plan right now is setting up a money pot for "emergencies" with loved ones- i am in beginning stages of what this means, but my thinking is to set aside, say 10,000 dollars, that a group of us can discuss what to do with. Whether this be for medical, housing, etc, that can be accessed by the group- either for taking or giving. I am questioning my motives (are they fear based related to "security" etc), but also want to go ahead with some planning so that I don't just mull and mull until I turn into cider.

So, I hope that wasn't too long winded. I feel like I have a lot more to say but have reached my computer max out point. Thanks again to everyone sharing about these topics. Emmett
[info]tyronius on July 5th, 2007 06:40 am (UTC)
last comment, I swear!
4) So, about feelings and fear around being open about this stuff...I think it's so complicated, and how we experience feeling and emotion about all this is connected to different class experiences, family situations, and every other imaginable thing. One of the things I'm taking away from the social forum is inspiration from a lot of amazing people and organizations that combine a radical, multi-issue analysis with a really loving focus on support and community-building and taking care of each other. I'm feeling kind of sappy about my politics right now...I think it's so crucial to connect work we do for justice and liberation to a real commitment to building sustainable community and taking care of each other and ourselves (in a real way, not a retirement-account way). We all make compromises and complicated choices because we live in an oppressive capitalist society that forces us to be complicit in some ways, and we're all growing and figuring this stuff out as we go along, and working on this together shouldn't be about being mean or needlessly harsh or "calling each other out" for the sake of deflecting our own guilt or whatever. I'm pretty into the idea of challenging as a form of respect, and doing it to build community and collectivity - not to be like "you're an evil capitalist tool for wanting an ipod," or something.
Anyway, I have so much more to say because I think about this stuff constantly, but I'll leave it at that for now. Let's keep talking about this!
dybbukdrama[info]dybbukdrama on July 6th, 2007 04:22 am (UTC)
yo it's nepon
hey i have livejournal now for writing about my upcoming travels! dean did you know we sold the viola st house? I'm super proud of the thoughtful/ethical/accountable model we came up with for juggling all the class/race/etc dynamics of the sale and using the house-sale to support economic justice resources in philly. long story short, the house had doubled in worth - we sold it a little below market value to good folks and we gave 15% ($10k) of the sale price to bread and roses community fund and directed them to give to a group of grassroots housing/economic justice groups that we picked in conversation with activists in the field. we split the other 85% up between all who had paid rent for more than 6 months/pro-rated by how long people lived in the house/paid rent. also we didn't put the house on the market, just spread word through a local anti-gentrification group. we worked with a real estate atty recommended by that group as well. bread and roses is publicizing this housing justice donor advised fund to leverage further fundraising - with great success so far. there's more to the story, but that's the basic overview. when we bought the house, we didn't really envision a process for ethically selling it, but like I said I'm really proud of this one... hope others can use it as a model.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 6th, 2007 08:44 pm (UTC)
Re: yo it's nepon
nepon,
thanks for this awesome concrete story of people figuring out how to navigate this money question in ways that met their values. i love examples! you are so smart. please write more about it if you want--what were the sticking points, what questions were you left with, what options did you decide against, etc?
thanks!!
dybbukdrama[info]dybbukdrama on July 7th, 2007 03:55 am (UTC)
Re: yo it's nepon
well I have SO much more to say about this - good questions! but I'm not sure about going into that whole process with full transparency on the wide-open internet... mainly because I worry about breaching the privacy of the buyers about their story... I don't know but it makes me nervous to tell this story which is also kind of theirs for all the world to google. but! if anyone wants more info email me at benhesherman at hotmail dot com - only I'll be out of the country for the next two months so don't be offended if I take a long-ass time to reply!

while I'm self-promoting, I think the history of the Self-Education Foundation is a cool story of challenging philanthropy-business-as-usual (as controlled by wealthy adults not grounded in the movement), and I encourage curious folks to check out www.selfeducation.org and not just the front page letter about closing shop but the list of groups we funded, the history, newsletters up online, etc.

Also! I'm a former trainer and board member of Resource Generation and I really want to encourage folks looking for smart/challenging/engaging conversations just like these ones to check RG out. It's an org committed to building a cross-class movement for economic justice - with a totally cross-class leadership (board/staff), so you don't have to be rich (or even rich-identified!) to engage. I worry that folks will re-create wheels that have been built and re-built many times... and connecting with RG is one way (of many) to avoid that.

ok, over and out! Thanks for this exciting conversation!

nepon
[info]meehaningful on July 13th, 2007 07:33 am (UTC)
Re: yo it's nepon
whoa, nepon. it's meehan--been a few years i think since our paths and work were crossing around similar ongoing convos. congrats on the creative sale.

i chanced on this conversation and am just catching up with the posts. i'm a better thinker and listener than articulate participant these days, so mainly just have much appreciation for the dialogue. i've been pondering the concept of anonymous giving lately myself (conceit of privilege? radical ceding of control and strings?) and its tension with the idea/l of financial transparency. thoughts?

anonymous or not, i do strongly feel that gifts to the groups we care about, whose analysis and vision we trust, should always be unrestricted... on the larger scale, i have loads of thoughts on the concept of money as protection, how justifying hoarding on the notion of protecting oneself, one's family, one's community, one's property is so easy, ostensibly sensible, and often culturally noble to do but how it also is premised on and breeds scarcity fears and lack of other important networks of safety and care.

thanks dean.
treyf[info]treyf on July 6th, 2007 01:00 pm (UTC)
There's so much food for thought in these last posts and replies, it's hard to even know where to begin. Thank you, Dean, for starting such a wonderful conversation. I, too, would love to take part in such a discussion. As someone with lots of education, no debt, a house I own and a fellowship that allows me to teach and travel, I am absolutely the person to target with this sort of stuff. I'm also someone who tends to feel afraid of joining groups like these, as I fear being vilified, even as I try to learn and expand my thinking about how I participate in the world.

It occurs to me that what you're proposing would hit upon some of our deepest and most ingrained fears and insecurities - in essence, these sorts of politics make us confront head-on the instability of the world as a whole. The same impulses that make us hoard our resources "just in case" are, in certain ways microcosms of the impulses that lead our government to curtail civil liberties in the name of protectionism. The bottom line is that people are scared, and for good reason. The world is unstable. Bad things can happen. And, even with money, we can be unprepared. So, the question becomes: how do we make space for fear and what people choose to do to alleviate it AND encourage ourselves and others, in whatever ways we can, to participate in some radical redistribution? I'm really interested in thinking about this for myself. And I hope that everyone who participates will be open to meeting people wherever they are with compassion.

On another note, I also want to thank everyone for their ideas about giving money with strings attached. Money is power, as we all know, and it's pretty interesting to me to think that the giving I do, which is so intentionally directed towards causes I support, is also a form of controlling resources, even as I distribute them elsewhere... Sigh. This is all very overwhelming.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 6th, 2007 09:18 pm (UTC)
tey,
thanks for writing this! it really is just this question--how to have these conversation, where people bring so much fear, guilt and insecurity, in ways that are non-judgemental and yet concrete and honest. it reminds me of the way processes around supporting white people in learning anti-racist analysis and practice has to struggle with these same deep feelings of insecurity and judgement. i really think we can be intentional about moving past them, but it is definitely a huge huge challenge. thanks for being part of this discussion.
(Anonymous) on July 6th, 2007 04:42 pm (UTC)
overcoming my shyness
hi, my name is jessie, and i just stumbled upon this journal a couple days ago. actually, i am an undergrad intern at SRLP this summer and landed here after google-ing your name for a project i'm working on in the office. i was feeling very mixed about commenting here, mostly because i feel awkward and invasive reading this without your permission, but in the end i decided that was not a good enough reason not to post. so first and foremost, thank you for all the incredible work you have done and continue to do. it is truly, deeply inspiring.

i am really captivated by all the conversation that is being had here. i think the ideas your bring up are incredibly important and encorporate so many issues. thank you so much for getting this dialogue started. i recently read "the revolution will not be funded" and have been doing some intense thinking about resources and capitalism and trying to figure out how to seriously reevaluate how i live my life, and how to actually live out sustained practices that are in line with my greater visions of mass redistribution and social justice. i want to challenge a lot of my current understandings and practices and really get into the hard and crucial questions and conversations and actions that need to be confronted. as a young white woman coming from a WASP-y family with "old money," i have been taught a) to never, ever talk about money, and b) that i should be frugal and "invest" so the money will just keep multiplying- not spend but hoard, basically. because of these things, i do not even know how much money my family/i realistically have, and if my grandmother had her way, i would know even less than i already do about my inheritance until i turn 21 (which is the arbitrary day when i will gain access to it). basically i have been kept in the dark about finances, and been raised to think that that's the Way It Should Be, so i have grown up with a very warped vision of what it means to be rich, and what it means to be from the family i'm from. i have been thinking a lot about this in recent years, and trying to breach a lot of these issues with my parents as well as confront them myself; to really critically look at how i envision my life and what i actually need when it comes down to it. and then from there, what to do with the access that i have to all these resources. the ideas and conversations that are being provoked on this journal have been incredible to read, and i would love to see them continue and grow....and to be a part of them in any way possible.
so thank you so much for starting all this off, and for a space to do all this thinking. i hope this continue to spawn such critical thinking, dialogue, and action.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 6th, 2007 05:31 pm (UTC)
Re: overcoming my shyness
jessie,
thanks so much for writing this and for working at SRLP this summer! i'm happy to meet you here, and I hope i'll run into you at the office when I'm in NYC later this month. thanks for sharing this, and for being open about the questions your are exploring about your own role in redistribution. i'm curious about whether you'd be willing to share some of the ideas that have come to mind for you about how to approach these questions. i feel like a lot of posts on this thread ask the questions, but it would be cool for all of us to also take the risk of posing some potential actions that we think about, and what comes up when we think about them. like, do you fear what your family will do/think if you decide to give away some or all of your inheritance when you're 21? do you have thoughts about why and how the taboo of talking about money operates in your family? i think that stuff would be cool to hear about--how you're interacting with your family, how you came to have a different perspective than them, what that feels like, etc. i think we all need to be role models for each other on this path, and i bet you have some really great ideas to share based on the experiences you've had already and the things you are thinking about as approaches moving forward. i hope you'll share them if you feel up to it. see you soon i hope!
[info]tyronius on July 6th, 2007 11:01 pm (UTC)
Re: overcoming my shyness
Hi Jessie! I appreciated reading your thoughts - I feel like lot of the stuff you're talking about is really common for folks who grow up with class privilege, especially when it comes from "old money." There are huge taboos around talking honestly about finances and class; when I first started talking to other folks about this stuff I was amazed at how, even though there's so much secrecy and isolation around class privilege and wealth, the messages that folks from wealthy families get about money are so similar: if you have money, keep it/don't talk about it/don't ask questions about it/let other people (family, financial advisers) deal with it. It's intense how so many people with family money have *no idea* how much they or their families have, or how much control they have over it, or where it's invested, or who they have to talk to to figure out all that stuff.
For me it was really exciting and empowering to start talking with my family about money and trying to get some hard facts that I could work with - and also to talk about their feelings about money, what the experience of being upwardly mobile classwise was like (they were both raised working-class), and how they feel about me giving my trust fund away. I'm really lucky to have fairly good relationships with both my parents that make talking about these things easier, but it definitely took some effort to get the conversations going for a lot of reasons (like, money is a way that my dad knows how to "take care" of my brother and I, so if we reject that it's a big deal). It was a lot easier to talk to my family about this stuff after I started working on addressing my own class shit; so instead of coming off as reactionary/naive/overly indignant 'cause I was feeling guilty, I could try to be more like, "hey, I have these fears and concerns - do you have them too? how do you deal with it? let's talk about it."
I also think its so good that you're starting to deal with and process this stuff *before* coming into some murky inheritance that your family isn't explaining to you - especially if yr family isn't generally cooperative or supportive of choices you might make about giving it away. That way once you have control over it you can really *do* something rather that just freaking out and not dealing (which is really easy to do) and ending up just sitting on all this money and feeling ashamed and guilty about it (and later finding out that its all invested in like, Monsanto or something).
What do you think? There are so many ways that family and society and class conditioning make it hard to break out of the weird secrecy and silence around class - I think it's important to see these types of messages we get from our families as part of a bigger structure that's designed to maintain and perpetuate the ruling class; and also that it's important to work together to do the really hard work of challenging these messages when it's so connected to relationships w/our families.
(Anonymous) on July 19th, 2007 02:36 am (UTC)
this got too long...ooops
hey y'all- sorry it's taken me a bit to respond. ive been doing a lot of musing and posing a lot of questions to myself...i was hoping to arrive at some answers, which i only think i've done to a very minimal degree. dean, like you prompted, ive been really trying to focus in on the very concrete realities/answers/steps as to what it would mean in my life to make a real committment to some of these things. for instance, one thing ive been thinking a lot about is how i am living my life this summer: i am subletting an apartment in prospect heights- as a white person, i am very blatantly contributing to the rapid gentrification of my neighborhood (i'll get back to this in a second). i am interning 2 days a week at srlp (unpaid), and waitressing 4ish days a week to make money. yet if i really were to break it down, i could afford to live this summer without earning any income (even though idont have access to my trust fund yet, my grandma has been giving me money in small incriments my whole life...and as someone who has historically really hated spending money, it's accumulated over the years). so, my point is: if i really wanted to, i couldve volunteered at srlp full time, or volunteered at numerous other places doing a lot more to try and make the world a better place, than serve hamburgers and beer. but...the idea of living and not working made/makes me feel incredibly unsettled, and that's something ive been trying to unravel. the reason i decided i definately wanted to work this summer is precisely because i DONT want to live off of my grandmother's money- it's not mine to have, and it's not mine to spend, and like my inheritence, i dont feel like i have any right to it. but at the same time, would i be more worthwhile, and able to make more of an impact, if i did anti-oppression and various other make-the-world-a-better-place-work 100% of the time and dug a little bit into this money, rather than spending so much of my time earning enough of "my own" money to just volunteer a little bit? also, to get back to the gentrification thing, living in this area given who i am and where i come from makes me feel really uncomfortable and shitty and like im making selfish choices. but then i feel like i come back to the same questions as i was posing before: since i could afford it, if i tapped into some family resources, would it be better if i lived someplace where i wasnt contributing to so much blatant displacement? but would that new place just be somewhere that had already been entirely gentrified by generations past? or, since the "family resources" i would have to depend on come from fucked up places and should be massively redistributed, do i refuse to depend on them at all but then perhaps have less options in terms of living as low-impact as possible? does this make any sense? sorry, it seems that in an attempt to provide some answers i just ended up asking more questions. but to get onto to your questions, tyrone, i have only just started broaching this topic with my fam. i, too, am very fortunate to have a really wonderful and open relationship with both my parents, but i think my problem right now is that i dont feel like i have a deep enough understanding about how things like trusts and bonds and stocks work to defend my visions of wealth and equality. and also, my family is great, and really generous, and gives away a lot of money to really great organizations and people and programs, most of which i generally support. but (and this is something that's addressed in a lot of reading ive been doing) the ratio of how much they give to how much they actually own is still soooo big. (i wish i could talk more specific numbers, but they are still mostly a mystery to me.) so while i am trying to start having conversations to both learn more and take a critical stance on our money and where it is going and where it should go, right now i still feel very confused and overwhelmed by the complexities of money management- a result, ithink, of the tight-lipped-ness that ive grown up with surrounding money.
(Anonymous) on July 19th, 2007 02:38 am (UTC)
this got too long...ooops: part II
something else i have been doing a lot of thinking about is along the lines of your latest post, dean, about judgement about consumer choices, etc. and how i want to really critically work on myself and my choices as a small step in remaking how i live my life. like i noticed pooja's comment about not buying an a/c. or, my housemates all grocery shop at pathmark- which i am (trying as hard as i can) not to judge, because for any number of reasons that might be their best option right now. but i am making a conscious effort to buy as much as i can from the farmer's market, or at least the most locally-produced and/or organic stuff i can find, as enticing as super-cheap-pathmark deals can be, because that is a decision that i can afford to make. or even more generally trying to examine my relationship with consumerism- because i have always hated spending money, and hated the idea of contributing to some sort of System, and yet, to simply live in this society we must be involved in it to some extent. so how to balance my hatred for spending money at all with my drive to spend money, even if it is more of it, in what i consider more holistic places.

thank you, again, for opening up these conversations. i have really enjoyed reading all of this stuff. oh! and tyrone i got your zine in the mail yesterday! it was wonderful and i would love to talk more about it. i also found out that classactionnet.org is based out of my hometown (northampton, ma) so i emailed them and am going to try and get involved when i am home for a few weeks in august. but iwould love to talk more about what you wrote about, and "making money make change", and everything else.
(Anonymous) on July 19th, 2007 04:00 am (UTC)
just one more thing, i swear
after re-reading my comments, i realized there is one thing to left to say. my thoughts have basically coalesed into an understanding that perhaps the way i can be the most effective is to radically redistribute the resources i have access to/control over to communities and people that can and know how to use them effectively. period. because even through re-reading what i just wrote, it still doesnt seem like i'd be contributing to any large-scale redistribution of wealth by living off of anything ive been given in order to contribute my time or energy to any sort of movement...i think what i really need to figure out how to do is to turn all my money over to communities and people that know how to best use it to effect change. anything short of that, and i dont really know how effective my participation can be. the question becomes, then, how do i go about doing this? i guess this is what ive known needs to be done and ive been stuck on all along...it's the ultimate answer i keep coming back to.
timothy[info]heavyleg on July 6th, 2007 10:45 pm (UTC)
dean, these posts and the conversation coming out of them are so good and important. i haven't replied until now, but i've been reading and thinking, mulling bits and pieces over. this is stuff i already grapple with as someone who has lots of class privilege but this is pushing me to confront it more head-on and really look at my guilt and i also so appreciate having a public space (even if just livejournal) where this conversation is going on.

bits and pieces: my dad left me money when he died, i'm not even sure how much exactly, but a lot, around $20,000. my mom currently has control over it in that she knows where it is. i don't. i realized when thinking about this stuff that i totally don't think about that money when i think about my income or choices around giving money -- he died when i was 19 and i was told the money was for buying a car or helping pay for higher education. but i felt weird about inheriting money when he died and i just realized when thinking about this discussion that i really kind of just refused to think of it as mine. certainly part of this is a more general thing about avoidance of his death or things that remind me of it, but there's also a huge piece that's about guilt and discomfort with the idea of inheritance and also confusion about choices around what to do with it. but ignoring it is the most useless way of responding to that! i just realized i'd been ignoring it, and that actually countering inheritance by giving it somewhere is way more of a solution than pretending it's not there. i'm always being really critical of my family members who have excess $ for investing it instead of giving it away but totally somehow overlooking the fact that i have this excess $. part of the tricky thing with this also is going against my dad's wishes about what i'm "supposed" to do with the money and i imagine that might cause conflict with other family members but fuck i knew my dad and know it's actually more in line with his spirit to reject his directive and do what i believe is right with it.

i'm really interested in the conversation going on about spending habits & wealth redistribution. dean, your strategy of asking yourself "in the world I want to live in, do I think everyone can have/do this think I'm thinking of having/doing?" makes a lot of sense to me. riding my bike today i was thinking about one of the spending $$ places that feels tricky to me around this, something i think about a lot. most of my family lives really, really far away, in south africa, where it's really insanely expensive to fly from the united states. my parents emigrated to the u.s. from there before i was born but we visited a bunch when i was a kid and i lived there briefly. my mom visits there pretty frequently & i have really complicated feelings about this because in some ways it's such a crucial thing for her and it's also such a "waste" of $$ that could be going somewhere else. visiting there is something i strongly desire in many ways too, it's a place that really feels like home to me in many ways (acknowledging that the process through which it became "home" for most of my ancestry is one of stolen land and extreme violence and white supremacy) & it's also the place where i feel strongest connection with my memories of my dad & his past & it's also really important to me to maintain connection to my family there. but spending money on a plane ticket there to visit feels so wrong too, in the "is this sustainable", "in the world i want to live in can everybody have this". "travel" as it's often done/talked about in the united states feels really not sustainable to me. my solution to this trickiness currently is to think about living in south africa again as a meaningful possibility but not so much visiting there. i might try to think through this some more though, or maybe talk about it with others, i have lots of friends who are immigrants or also have immigrant parents and could probably relate to some of it.
cruciferous[info]cruciferous on July 6th, 2007 11:04 pm (UTC)
timothy,
travel is one that i find really challenging too. the people i am closest to in the world and rely on for my emotional support live on two different coasts and i fly on planes to see them a lot and i think a lot about the $ and the environmental impact and how unsustainable this is. i can't seem to get them to all move to one place, so i'm not sure how to navigate this. i guess when i ask myself that question about the world i want to live in, i realize that the amount of petroleum and money i use in the world would not ever be something that everyone could have, so the practice is not meeting my principles. perhaps i need to change my expectations about how often to see them? it used to be people who lived 3000 miles apart never saw each other again or only saw each other every decade or something. i'm not sure how to approach this, and your question is even more complex, because it seems really important for people whose family's immigrated or who immigrated themselves and left family behind to be able to go home. i appreciate you bringing that up.
as an aside, my favorite book about the politics of travel (not to homelands or within our countries, but travel from rich countries to poor countries) is A Small Place by Jamaica Kincaid. everyone should read it. i have a photocopied version i'd be willing to mail to anyone who wants a copy if you email me. deanspade@gmail
also, timothy, thanks for talking about your dad. you know i love people with dead parents, every one of them, and especially you birthday boy!